Someone doesn't like UKARA, or here we go again

Colin Allen said:
I have to wonder why sites would not be UKARA registered
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Best i can make out, either being too new/small or apathy. A common case is [generic outdoor activity centre] hosts an airsoft game, then gradually becomes more and more an airsoft focused site until finally getting around to registering.

Colin Allen said:
As for the “normie” border agents, I suspect that airsoft imports are a relatively tiny part of their workload, so it is not surprising that they focus on what is by far the most common way of providing a defence.
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Absolutely, tbh its testament to ukara that its successful enough to be known in those circles at all.

Feels like its something border agents get one bullet point in an orientation presentation with the rest of the slide being rules for actual guns.
 
Border Force accept Sportsman Association membership as well as UKARA for importation of RIF’s.
 
GiantKiwi said:
Concerningly the most common I've seen is lack of appropriate PLI. Which given the nature of things, is a baseline minimum for running anything involving the public, but it seems people running them think they can do without.
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I had to have PLI for a (very) small transport company. In case some randomer stepped onto one of my vans and then fell off. Running an airsoft site without it is a huge risk. 😕
 
Yeah a local site here had no UKARA for ages. They said UKARA was actually down for a bit. Went to other sites and found out it was a lie.

Later they end up shutting their doors. Shame, the land was great with some decent built up areas and it was right near me. It was just mishandled and ran out of money.

But yeah looking at German F marks, Dutch NABV, or Norwegian players clubs makes me happy UKARA is so hands off. The NABV in particular has an annual fee and dictates national rules for what BB weight you're allowed to use and even what models of gun can be a DMR.

I'm no fan of "yeah it's a short M4 but it's got a scope so DMR m8" but I'm also glad we don't have a central committee making the choice for us all lmao.
 
Lyndication said:
Yeah a local site here had no UKARA for ages. They said UKARA was actually down for a bit. Went to other sites and found out it was a lie.

Later they end up shutting their doors. Shame, the land was great with some decent built up areas and it was right near me. It was just mishandled and ran out of money.

But yeah looking at German F marks, Dutch NABV, or Norwegian players clubs makes me happy UKARA is so hands off. The NABV in particular has an annual fee and dictates national rules for what BB weight you're allowed to use and even what models of gun can be a DMR.

I'm no fan of "yeah it's a short M4 but it's got a scope so DMR m8" but I'm also glad we don't have a central committee making the choice for us all lmao.
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Wait, in Norway I can join a committee to regulate what other players get to use? SIGN ME UP

All jokes aside, I was around when UKARA was being formulated (during the war...). Honestly I think it's an absolute miracle it got as far as it did and we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who managed it. We could all be stuck with two-tones.

However... competition breeds innovation. I'm all for it. Good luck to them I say.
 
Norway is a funny one because a court ruled that leaving BBs everywhere is technically littering in natural spaces, and PLA "bio" BBs don't actually biodegrade. (It's that "industrially compostable" thing again).

So outdoor Airsoft was kinda banned there, and they formed a kinda player's union to fund making actually biodegradable BBs so they could play outside.

Took a few years but it's called TerraBB.
 
BRThoughts said:
“Tracks game attendance for eligibility checks”.
So, someone other than the sites I play at (a privately owned limited company) will be compiling a complete dated list of every game day I’ve attended and it’s location. Yeah, that kind of behavioural data collection fills me with huge confidence.
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Valid concern, but it's only if you're giving the site your membership details for this new scheme, otherwise they will never know.

GiantKiwi said:
UKARA has nothing to do with stipulating the time periods now, its written into the legislation - Section 38 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ommencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures
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That's a publication by the Government, it's not the law. The actual law it set out by Statutory Instrument which provides the airsoft defence as:

“permitted activities” means the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation;

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007

These Regulations make provision in connection with the realistic imitation firearms provisions of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (sections 36 to 38 and paragraphs 4 to 6 of Schedule 2).
www.legislation.gov.uk www.legislation.gov.uk
 
GiantKiwi said:
UKARA has nothing to do with stipulating the time periods now, its written into the legislation - Section 38 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ommencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures
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Note that the document you have linked to quotes the number of visits / duration requirement but not as part of legislation.
As @Neptune has noted it references the Statutory instrument introducing the Airsoft Defence (to be pedantic it is ‘secondary legislation’ that supplements the VCRA ‘primary Legislation’. The linked document is neither). but still does not place the visits / duration into legislation

What it does do is link the planned “Association of British Airsoft” membership scheme as a method to document an Airsoft skirmisher defence. That ABA scheme came out as the UKARA membership scheme

…. Never one to miss an opportunity to bring up the original Airsoft licence - note that the document also mentions that the ABA scheme would include a membership card. If you rewind to the ABA/government negotiations the ABAs proposal was an Airsoft skirmisher licensing scheme that required the qualification of a number of visits over a time period
I don’t know if the UKARA ever issued membership cards (participating site memberships may have done so and some sites may still do so)

Newbies who come on referring to their UKARA licence are more correct then people think
It’s not government issued, but is government endorsed - and was proposed by the originator as a licence
 
Neptune said:
Valid concern, but it's only if you're giving the site your membership details for this new scheme, otherwise they will never know.


That's a publication by the Government, it's not the law. The actual law it set out by Statutory Instrument which provides the airsoft defence as:

“permitted activities” means the acting out of military or law enforcement scenarios for the purposes of recreation;

The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007

These Regulations make provision in connection with the realistic imitation firearms provisions of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (sections 36 to 38 and paragraphs 4 to 6 of Schedule 2).
www.legislation.gov.uk www.legislation.gov.uk
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Ok, lets take pedanticism to the max as the pair of you clearly want to do so:

Publications are the guidance documents made to determine how something is realistically enforced, as laws are rarely directly enforced by the primary or secondary legislation. So that document is how if it makes it to a governing authority, they will use the guidance in the publication to make an determinations of legality, prior to pursuing it with the courts. Until a court is involved, the guidance is the practical application of the law until a court decides otherwise.

So in effect, the guidance is the determined law until such a time where a judge can be involved - which with the current state of the legal system is anytime from 3 years to never.
 
GiantKiwi said:
Ok, lets take pedanticism to the max as the pair of you clearly want to do so:

Publications are the guidance documents made to determine how something is realistically enforced, as laws are rarely directly enforced by the primary or secondary legislation. So that document is how if it makes it to a governing authority, they will use the guidance in the publication to make an determinations of legality, prior to pursuing it with the courts. Until a court is involved, the guidance is the practical application of the law until a court decides otherwise.

So in effect, the guidance is the determined law until such a time where a judge can be involved - which with the current state of the legal system is anytime from 3 years to never.
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It is not being pedantic, you stated "UKARA has nothing to do with stipulating the time periods now, its written into the legislation", when the complete opposite is true. UKARA has set their own requirements.

That publication is merely stating what UKARA is about to do, not what it has to do. Why would UKARA have these requirements but re-enactment wouldn't? The UKARA requirements for time periods, 3 events etc could be changed today.
 
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