Novritsch's New Heavier Full Thrust Bb's.

[GeorgePlaysAirsoft]

Novstritch's done WHAT!?

0.62g seems getting in to the realms of the rediculous now. I appreciate there's a joule restriction but what are people's thoughts about getting hit right in the boat with these Kicking Mustang style? 

Absolutely zero problem with it - if its legal and sites allow it, great. I think it would be better if we had high power limits in the UK, with the law setting out a maximum and allowing sites/organisers and their patron's to make a decision about joules and minimum engagement distances and all that sort of stuff - especially for "Milsim" events where you could have a higher joule limit for a machine gun then you did,  say an SMG  - not for the sake of any perceptions of "realism" but rather the number one important thing -  "fun",  and in this particular case more fun then say, a binary trigger (which I can see being banned by sites as soon as they reach a popularity threshold).

Sure, this could be a grift, but my snap response is "innovation is good".  Not to mention in the event it was a successful system there'd be a bunch of clones out in no time. 

As for the cost of bb's im always reminded of a letter in Viz which was something along the lines of "I don't understand why people are complaining about the cost of fuel - I only put in £20 at a time anyway". 

 

[AlphaBear]

I had tears paying 1.75p a shot for 0.4 Geoff’s (that includes Factoring in postage too)!

The Thing you need to worry about IMHO is those people who have r-hops in their 350fps AEGs who can auto fire heavy ammo. Will they bother about MED on full auto?

 

[Adolf Hamster]

The "science" behind it isn't completely woo.  Higher mass + lower velocity will bleed energy more slowly than a lighter, faster BB even with the increased surface area.  But it's marginal.

i havent bothered running the numbers, but i'd wager the density isn't far off the current 0.48g 6mm offerings, and the only mass increase is from the volume increase.

of course with volume increasing as a cube whilst cross section (which is what drag cares about) increasing by a square it makes sense that higher caliber is still going to have an advantage.

Sure, this could be a grift, but my snap response is "innovation is good".  Not to mention in the event it was a successful system there'd be a bunch of clones out in no time. 

wouldn't say it's all that innovative, i mean 8mm was a thing years ago.

The Thing you need to worry about IMHO is those people who have r-hops in their 350fps AEGs who can auto fire heavy ammo. Will they bother about MED on full auto?

if they can point blank at 1.3j on 0.2g then point blank with 1.3j on 0.48's isn't going to be any different feel wise.

heavier ammo doesn't have any more muzzle energy point blank, it just holds it better with range.

that said, last time i ran the numbers it was interesting that ~0.48g at 2.5j had pretty much bang on 1.3j at 20m which afaik is a pretty common MED, of course the heavier the ammo the more it'll have at that same MED range.

 

[alxndrhll]

Replacing internal parts with proprietary internal parts just seems like a change I really can’t wrap my head around. Perhaps I’ve just been scared away by the dreaded ‘p’ word when it comes to internal parts because I’ve been stung by them before I knew any better, so I’m making more of it than need be. But at least you’re covered by that wonderful warranty ?.

Once the r&d is finished on these I wouldn’t be shocked if the long term plan is to start throwing these into everything they make so at the very least they have an actual USP and a ‘nice’ reason to have everything, that isn’t a battery, proprietary for the bulk of the RIFs they sell.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Replacing internal parts with proprietary internal parts just seems like a change I really can’t wrap my head around. Perhaps I’ve just been scared away by the dreaded ‘p’ word when it comes to internal parts because I’ve been stung by them before I knew any better, so I’m making more of it than need be. But at least you’re covered by that wonderful warranty ?.

Once the r&d is finished on these I wouldn’t be shocked if the long term plan is to start throwing these into everything they make so at the very least they have an actual USP and a ‘nice’ reason to have everything, that isn’t a battery, proprietary for the bulk of the RIFs they sell.

you're not being over-cautious proprietary parts are a bad thing.

it's the same argument i use for example against apple, yes on paper the end product is better, but it forces you into the entire ecosystem.

for example i like geoffs bb's, i find them to be of good quality, well what if they start turning out crap? well i just start buying another brand of bb's problem solved.

whereas with this, well, if novritch's QC slips on the bb's then you're stuck, your gun will perform like crap no matter how good it is on paper.

not to mention once there's a captive audience that needs his ammo to run their kit, well that's a great excuse to ramp up them prices.

 

[alxndrhll]

you're not being over-cautious proprietary parts are a bad thing.

it's the same argument i use for example against apple, yes on paper the end product is better, but it forces you into the entire ecosystem.

for example i like geoffs bb's, i find them to be of good quality, well what if they start turning out crap? well i just start buying another brand of bb's problem solved.

whereas with this, well, if novritch's QC slips on the bb's then you're stuck, your gun will perform like crap no matter how good it is on paper.

not to mention once there's a captive audience that needs his ammo to run their kit, well that's a great excuse to ramp up them prices.

Hadn’t even considered the issue of supply on consumables, I guess that’s because it’s not something we really need to when running ‘standard’ BBs.

I dread to think how frustrating it would be to have a few games booked in, use more ammo than anticipated to find out the BBs are out of stock so you can’t use your ‘fancy rifle with an unfair advantage’ (the fact the phrase unfair advantage is presented with positive connotations also makes my head spin).

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Hadn’t even considered the issue of supply on consumables, I guess that’s because it’s not something we really need to when running ‘standard’ BBs.

i used to run laser dot bb's a lot, didn't think much of it until i started running ak's and found horrible feeding issues with the mags, figured fuck it lets try some different ammo and ordered geoffs and since then they've fed every single round every single time without fail.

 

[alxndrhll]

i used to run laser dot bb's a lot, didn't think much of it until i started running ak's and found horrible feeding issues with the mags, figured fuck it lets try some different ammo and ordered geoffs and since then they've fed every single round every single time without fail.

I know most have their preference as to what BBs they feed their RIF, and depending on this choice supply can be an issue... especially as your travel into the heavier weights. But ultimately you still have a choice if you are to run out of your favourite that you can either try another brand which is immediately available, or bench the RIF until stock replenishes.
 

The thought of being entirely reliant on one supplier for BBs or your RIF will not function is pretty grim, I know the outcome may be identical to the situation above if you’d rather bench a RIF than try different ammo but the removal of that choice is perhaps the biggest deal breaker... in, what for me personally, is a long list of deal breakers.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

The thought of being entirely reliant on one supplier for BBs or your RIF will not function is pretty grim, I know the outcome may be identical to the situation above if you’d rather bench a RIF than try different ammo but the removal of that choice is perhaps the biggest deal breaker... in, what for me personally, is a long list of deal breakers.

in this case it's not just bb's but barrels, hop rubber/unit, magazines and loaders.

as obsessed with range as i am, that's just not worth it.

 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

I roughly agree that proprietary parts can be crap - at the same time though everything's proprietary until it gets cloned. Individual parts might not get cloned, but I could see a "system" like this taking off maybe.

 

[Adolf Hamster]

I roughly agree that proprietary parts can be crap - at the same time though everything's proprietary until it gets cloned. Individual parts might not get cloned, but I could see a "system" like this taking off maybe.

that is a fair point, although perhaps it'd be better to see a ressurection of 8mm?

that said, 8mm died off because it was harder to get the ammo and 6mm is so well entrenched now that it's gonna be hell to push into that market.

it's like the argument in RS for replacing 5.56 with something else, end of the day there's not enough advantage to be gained that's worth the cost of replacing all the guns, magazines and other stuff in the supply chain.

 

[Rogerborg]

i havent bothered running the numbers, but i'd wager the density isn't far off the current 0.48g 6mm offerings, and the only mass increase is from the volume increase.

I haven't bothered either, as the whole idea is so ridiculous that I just can't get interested enough to do it.

of course with volume increasing as a cube whilst cross section (which is what drag cares about) increasing by a square it makes sense that higher caliber is still going to have an advantage.

I reckon so, but minimally. And...

wouldn't say it's all that innovative, i mean 8mm was a thing years ago.

... that, exactly. If 6.44mm is better, why isn't 8mm better still?

Huh, I haven't even considered hop rubbers as another of the consumable parts.

 

[alxndrhll]

I guess it’s just where the process starts for me whenever I’m looking to buy or ‘upgrade’ a RIF these days. Once I’ve tested the various options available I’ll tend to buy at least one spare of the parts which are relatively easy to replace while at a site, this is largely because I don’t have a particularly large collection. I have a little labelled zip lock baggy with spares for all my RIFs which goes in the toolbox when I head out. Shit, am I a ‘prepper’?

If anyone is looking to install this system I’d say it’s fairly wise to pick up multiples of things like hop bucking and nubs, assuming that’s an option and you’re not forced to buy an entire kit when the only thing you need is a bucking.

But that’s another conversation entirely, alongside what the warranty does... or doesn’t cover.

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

forced to buy an entire kit when the only thing you need is a bucking.

Funny you mention that because in relation to the issues I was having with the shortstroke slide on my Novritsch SSP1, I was told two things: 1) The buffer rings required are considered consumable parts and as such are NOT covered by any kind of warranty etc. 2) Even though they are considered consumable parts, they are NOT sold separately to the EUR 55 slide kit.

 

[Rogerborg]

1) The buffer rings required are considered consumable parts

Is there a published list of what Nobritsch considers consumable, and what he doesn't?

A suspicious person might assume that consumable is synonymous with breakable, therefore anything that breaks is consumable.

 

[Cr0-Magnon]

Is there a published list of what Nobritsch considers consumable, and what he doesn't?

A suspicious person might assume that consumable is synonymous with breakable, therefore anything that breaks is consumable.

At no point did I inform them that I forced the takedown lever though the wrong section on this slide (because this definitely didn't happen!). You can see it's prematurely worn rather than damaged in one hit. However that was the accusation thrown at me by them. Looking at what's not covered in the SSG10 25 year warranty, it seems like this is a massive loop hole for them and probably drilled in to the staff from their first day. Repeat after me: "Not covered because it's your fault it broke"

You'll be pleased to hear that as a sign of goodwill, they are willing to issue a five euro credit note, should I wish to purchase a new slide!

 

[alxndrhll]

You know it's going poorly when a warranty becomes one of the biggest downfalls of a product.

 

[Rogerborg]

Always reminds me of this beautifully observed snippet from H. G. Wells on the issues of quality and culpability.  Substitute your own airsoft terms.

It was rare that a bicycle started out from their hands in a state of pedantic efficiency. Romantic possibilities of accident lurked in the worn thread of the screw that adjusted the saddle, in the precarious pedals, in the loose-knit chain, in the handle-bars, above all in the brakes and tyres. Tappings and clankings and strange rhythmic creakings awoke as the intrepid hirer pedalled out into the country. Then perhaps the bell would jam or a brake fail to act on a hill; or the seat-pillar would get loose, and the saddle drop three or four inches with a disconcerting bump; or the loose and rattling chain would jump the cogs of the chain-wheel as the machine ran downhill, and so bring the mechanism to an abrupt and disastrous stop without at the same time arresting the forward momentum of the rider; or a tyre would bang, or sigh quietly, and give up the struggle for efficiency.

When the hirer returned, a heated pedestrian, Grubb would ignore all verbal complaints, and examine the machine gravely.

“This ain't 'ad fair usage,” he used to begin.

He became a mild embodiment of the spirit of reason. “You can't expect a bicycle to take you up in its arms and carry you,” he used to say. “You got to show intelligence. After all—it's machinery.”

 

[alxndrhll]

It certainly very elegantly covers that mechanical parts can and will break over time, the art of maintaining mechanical parts will only delays the inevitable.

The intelligence comes in recognising this early and trying as best you can to not begrudge an inanimate object for giving up the ghost at what will, of course, be ‘the worst time possible for it to happen’. Plot twist, there isn’t a good time for something to break... merely ones which are more convenient to deal with.

I guess a warranty exists to make this fact easier swallow and at the very least remove a portion of the financial burden of stuff breaking, though the Novritsch warranty seems to add to the frustration rather than removing from it. And at the time of writing this, your only option for replacing parts in this system are with parts from the exact same place and manufacturer which you purchased the ones which have broken. Whether this actually stands as a negative? Well time will tell I guess.

TLDR - Shit breaks. When it breaks it costs money to replace. Warranties exists to make it not cost you money. From reports, the warranty on these products doesn’t do that.