hit takers - the usual suspects.....

Last year I had some bloke accuse me of cheating, I abruptly told him "You weren't firing anything at me." and I pointed out that he left the high cap for his rental gun at the safe zone. I had never seen a man's face glow bright red like his did.

 
Mmmm, I had the morning of a game at Red1's School almost ruined by a non hit taker and a false accusation of non hit taking.

1) Black hoodie was attempting to pin us in our respawn from a pretty exposed position, it got to the point where we would tap the roof of the respawn shout that we were back in and hose him, get hit, and repeat. He flinched, we watched bb's ricocheting off him especially the top of his head. He seemed to be under the impression that if he was behind the pallet even though his head was poking out the top was immune to our fire. In the end he was pinned behind some pallets cowering as 4 of us hosed him from all angles, think he got the point that we were pissed at him. Problem is when I see non hit taking it mostly just pisses me right off, and I need to take a little while to chill otherwise I'd end up overkilling them if I got the chance.

2) I was accused by another player in a full set of MTP including PC and a tricked out M4 with plenty of Magpul bling, in the next game of not taking hits from him, I was kneeling and had peppered his chest, he had his gun pointed at the floor as he was running towards my position and had reflexively fired still pointing it at the floor. After lots of shouty angry words from him I pointed out the angle of his barrel, all his mates that had been part of the same charge that I had also taken out, laughed at their mate and told him he was being a right pr!ck.

In my experience poor play seems to be everywhere from any one, I know I've had the odd bad day here and there. But if I had to pick a "type" I would suggest people with amazing matching kit that has cost them a fortune but don't necessarily display the skills to back it up, and people that turn up in a black hoodie, adidas trackies, and a pair of brightly coloured trainers. That's only because that's what the guys above wore.

Mind you they would probably describe someone in DPM and an OD plate carrier. ie Me.

 
There is no 'type'

afternoons are worse for non hit taking in my experience, although I just employ dirty tactics to deal with any non hit takers, a full on burst in the face after some serious sneaking up on my part normally cures them of their indiscretions

 
I've been to games where one person continually cheats in multiple ways through the entire day. I'd like to see people like that kicked off the site because it's just upsetting. Plus it's in the interest of the site owner as one dikhead can put off 20 people from coming. That's a serious loss of revenue for the sake of one bad apple.

 
Last year I had some bloke accuse me of cheating, I abruptly told him "You weren't firing anything at me." and I pointed out that he left the high cap for his rental gun at the safe zone. I had never seen a man's face glow bright red like his did.
That's the best story I've ever read! Haha!

 
There is no 'type'

afternoons are worse for non hit taking in my experience,
Yeah afternoons tend to be worse in my experience, which leads me to my additional observation.

If the person is not taking hits in the morning something should be done then as the likely hood is it will only get worse later. Especially when people start getting pissed off with them and get aggressive or resort to similar behaviour themselves.

This is where the system of tooled up marshals shooting players point blank or near as and giving warnings for people who don't call it. Marshals need to have a simple policy to follow, something like if you cheat and are caught twice in a day you are not welcome and you have to leave there and then. Doesn't matter if you are in the group of 20 rentals that came down by coach or the member of the local team you go, if the site let you back at a later date it is totally up to them.

And I get your point about type, there isn't really one which is why in my post there are 3 possible types including myself as I know there are occasions when I get things wrong.

 
Yeah afternoons tend to be worse in my experience, which leads me to my additional observation.

If the person is not taking hits in the morning something should be done then as the likely hood is it will only get worse later. Especially when people start getting pissed off with them and get aggressive or resort to similar behaviour themselves.

This is where the system of tooled up marshals shooting players point blank or near as and giving warnings for people who don't call it. Marshals need to have a simple policy to follow, something like if you cheat and are caught twice in a day you are not welcome and you have to leave there and then. Doesn't matter if you are in the group of 20 rentals that came down by coach or the member of the local team you go, if the site let you back at a later date it is totally up to them.

And I get your point about type, there isn't really one which is why in my post there are 3 possible types including myself as I know there are occasions when I get things wrong.
I've heard ucap woodlands do this. If there is any suspicion of someone cheating a Marshall would shoot them during the game to see if they call it. I suppose in one way it's a good way to find out but I'd be a bit pissed if it happened to me because someone thought I was cheating and I weren't.

 
Ah the site I know of, if you call it they say ignore it and carry on, no regen etc, if you don't call it you get a warning second time you get a time out, third time you are outta there.

One site has all noobs, rentals etc after the safety brief stand in two lines like a firing squad and shoot each other, only a couple of shots, 2 reasons, so they know what it feels like to be shot, and so that they know what it sounds like on their kit. I think its a pretty good idea.

If it was up to me people, repeatedly overkilling would be invited to run the gauntlet or leave. If you do it you'd be unlikely to have a heavy trigger finger in future.

Maybe I'm harsh but overkill and not taking hits are my pet peeves in airsoft.

 
Ah the site I know of, if you call it they say ignore it and carry on, no regen etc, if you don't call it you get a warning second time you get a time out, third time you are outta there.

One site has all noobs, rentals etc after the safety brief stand in two lines like a firing squad and shoot each other, only a couple of shots, 2 reasons, so they know what it feels like to be shot, and so that they know what it sounds like on their kit. I think its a pretty good idea.

If it was up to me people, repeatedly overkilling would be invited to run the gauntlet or leave. If you do it you'd be unlikely to have a heavy trigger finger in future.

Maybe I'm harsh but overkill and not taking hits are my pet peeves in airsoft.
That is overkill!

I've never been to the site I was talking about, a friend has and he said he's seen it happen to people before. Maybe they do the same and let the player carry, I guess it is the most sensible thing to do.

 
I had an experience yesterday at The Tunnels when I thought someone wasn't taking hits from me at about 20 yards, especially as I'd been taking out people at twice that range easily just before. I was just about to get upset at him when I realised my MP5 midcap was emply and, because I don't use it that often and wasn't quite clued up to the sound it makes when dry firing, I'd been shooting air at him. Needless to say, in the time it took me to change mags he had adjusted his aim and took me out instead. I also had a couple of occasions when I felt a soft nick on my coat, soft enough that it couldn't have been a direct shot and was probably a round bouncing off the floor or wall at the end of its travel. Those I won't call hit on, but I did on a couple of occasions when I was hit from behind from what were probably ricochets, although as I had team mates behind me I couldn't be sure one of them had hit me in error, so took the hit.

Later I took out my M16, which has greater range than my MP5 and was getting shots in on people at about 40 yards that didn't seem to have any effect. I know the BBs were hitting the wall behind them, as a mate was in front of me and could hear them striking (I couldn't), but as I hadn't used that rifle since October I also couldn't be sure that the sights were still in line with the point of impact, so I could have been missing my target (NB: brown bio BBs are really hard to track in a dimly lit tunnel, even down the beam of a bright torch). So even though you think you might be hitting someone, unless you are 100% sure that your sights are spot on, or you can actually see the BBs hitting your target, you may not actually be getting the hits you think you are. Time to take the M16 down to the rifle range and get it lined up again, either that or change back to white plastic BBs that you can see all the way to the target.

 
Later I took out my M16, which has greater range than my MP5 and was getting shots in on people at about 40 yards that didn't seem to have any effect. I know the BBs were hitting the wall behind them, as a mate was in front of me and could hear them striking (I couldn't), but as I hadn't used that rifle since October I also couldn't be sure that the sights were still in line with the point of impact, so I could have been missing my target (NB: brown bio BBs are really hard to track in a dimly lit tunnel, even down the beam of a bright torch). So even though you think you might be hitting someone, unless you are 100% sure that your sights are spot on, or you can actually see the BBs hitting your target, you may not actually be getting the hits you think you are. Time to take the M16 down to the rifle range and get it lined up again, either that or change back to white plastic BBs that you can see all the way to the target.
I bought black BBs once thinking they'd be better at my dark CQB site as people would see them coming. Worse mistake ever as I couldn't see where I shooting.
 
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a tad off topic, what are your views on folk who insist that they know the rules far better than anyone else? Had a chap tell my mate off for using dead players as cover (were using the medic rule) and tbh it was somit I found a bit iffy but thought was at the end of the day a good tactical move. He didn't do it again after as we were visiting the site so didn't want to annoy the locals. I also had a chap repeatedly tell me not to fire from the hip, I was in no way blind firing, I got shot out and asked clarification from the marshals as again I didn't want to annoy the locals. The marshal said it was fine.... strangely tho the chap that whined about it decided to shoot me in the nose while my hand was in the air.
I really enjoyed my game there and was pleased to see the marshals supervising to check I was taking my hits (am guessing that the peeps hunting me were getting frustrated with my "Marco..... Polo" ninja moves ;-) lol)

 
I don't think you should use another player as a human shield lol, unless you would like to get rinsed with BBs while someone hides behind you.

However it isn't really for players to be enforcing the site rules(or making up their own) - I wouldn't mind someone pointing out if I was doing something against the rules, but really if they have a problem with a player they should be speaking to a Marshal. Ordering other players about is likely to just lead to drama.

 
I've stopped wearing rigs which cover my chest because I know that I don't feel hits through them, so I have to rely on the sound... yeah, well, not when I'm firing myself or have a team mate close by, or I'm running across crunchy terrain, or there's terrain being rattled around me by misses, because my hearing has a pronounced drop off in the higher frequencies and a bit of tinnitus in the upper mids. It's not like it's an absolute, like if I don't feel it I don't take it, because obviously I hear some, but I've had enough people saying "Oi!" to take note.

There was another time when somebody pulled me on the way back to the safe zone to say he had been hitting me in the leg, consistently, during the last game. I was lying prone behind some barrels and snap shooting with my off hand and, combined with a noob rental on my right crouching, putting the complete damper on any advance up that flank - he said my leg was sticking out, which I find credible. Weeeeell, I felt nothing, but I did have a knee pad on and a drop leg dump pouch, so it seemed possible - but I was prone, so the back of my leg should have been shot if he'd been hitting me as much as he claimed and it's pretty sensitive, plus there were marshals close by... what can you say except "Didn't feel it. I'm sorry you are annoyed. If it happens again please call a marshal because I don't want to be cheating accidentally."

Thing is, in the last example the bloke was obviously peeved, but he was still polite about it. I've done the same kind of thing myself as well, when I've been sure I've hit somebody and it actually mattered to the outcome of the skirmish, but they didn't take it. It's not always possible to get a marshal to oversee somebody whom you think isn't taking their hits, because the situation develops and changes too fast. At times like those I just remind myself that I'm doing it for a laugh primarily, the majority of people are like me in that if they are not taking hits it's because they do not know they're being hit, all that's needed is a polite word.

There is also adrenalin to consider. I'm pretty sure that I have failed to notice hits to even relatively sensitive areas like the inside of my biceps, because I've got home and found round hit bruises but don't remember the hit (although with the state of my memory it probably is possible that i took a hit and just forgot the whole regen etc :lol: ). I can't be alone in this though. If we didn't get excited at some points during a skirmish day, there'd be little point IMO! So I spose that what I'm saying is that I'm very prepared to accept that most people are well meaning but that they sometimes don't take hits, so I'm not in favour of any draconian procedures for enforcing the rules. I think every case needs to be examined on its own merits. There obviously are some people who refuse to take hits they clearly have felt, but my experience of life leads me to believe that people respond far better to feeling mildly embarrassed when they do wrong and being praised when they do right than they do to being told to get lost for rule infringements.

That said, the people whom we all have met, with their loadout and guns costing not far off the price of a reasonable car, who have been at it for long enough that they ought to know better, but look down their nose at us mere mortal skirmishers and refuse to believe that we could have hit them, the Absolute Cocks (it's a technical term) and/or members of Special Farces, really do need to be pulled up short by marshal intervention and sin binned for infractions, because they literally have too much invested in their self image to change without an external imperative. But as for a type, Ed, JCheeseright, and Sam, to mention just 3 off the top of my head, can and do field some fair wallop of money's worth of kit, and though I can only vouch for Ed and James in person, I'm sure Sam is an honourable player, so it totally doesn't mean that we ought to expect good kit to go with a bad attitude.

 
I do feel a bit sorry for people that spend so much money on kit and still feel the need to cheat. I was at a game last year where my mate was pinging shots off this chap, he looks down at where he is being hit and then up at my mate and shakes his head, then continues playing. At least you could argue that rentals might not know any better, although I would disagree.

Like you say Ian best bet is just to laugh it off, which isn't always easy - I guess if people are so inadequate they feel the need to cheat that is their choice. I'm sure I am not the only one that takes hits if there is a doubt whether it was a ricochet, but i'd rather that than look back on a firefight and think I might have not taken a legitimate hit.

 
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I go with balance of probabilities for ricochets - if it's 1, 2, 3 maybe, and i hear it/them hit something 1st, I don't care what it looks like, I'm not taking it. More than that and it gets difficult to tell if all of the hits were ricochets, maybe only 1 out of 5 was a direct shot but that's possible, so then it comes down to where I was hit in comparison to angles from which I could be hit - if it's still possible, I'll take it. Then there's being hosed behind cover - if I can hear and see BB's bouncing off the cover and feel loads of hits getting through gaps, I'll just take it even if I'm sceptical, because chances are if 1 hasn't actually got me direct yet, it soon will.

Oh yeah, and another way to cut down on ambiguity is the 'no mercy' approach. I hear people complaining about overkill. Personally I don't mind being hosed, unless I've shouted hit and stuck my hand up - that really gets up my arse and I can't help swearing about it. But simply being fired at full auto, when the shooter pretty much knows that the first shot will hit, but even if it doesn't the 2nd is a guarantee because they'll have been able to adjust aim, no, I don't care - it's an adventure sport - the risk is that you will get hurt. If there was no risk of getting hurt, there'd be far less, in some games no, reason to get excited. Same with headshots. We all get the same briefing ,"We recommend that you wear full face protection.", and if some people don't want to take that on board it's tough titties when they get a string of bleeders across their chops. But one thing that 'no mercy' does do is makes as sure as possible that we each know when we have been hit. It's not like anyone who is wearing their safety equipment properly is going to get actually injured and surely the marshal's main job is to make sure that any player whose eye protection appears inadequate, whether by construction or by how it is being used, gets back to the safe zone ASAP under cover of a shouted CEASE FIRE!

I dunno, maybe there needs to be a split in our sport/hobby...

keep the name airsoft for all the single shot only inside buildings, no deliberate headshots, 328 +/- 5% FPS, no DMR, 25+m MED for 500FPS BASR's, no CO2 guns, underarm bowling of BFG's only, etc. type of rules and...

adopt the Russian name "Strikeball" for no mercy, full auto 368 FPS hard limit, full auto designated support weapons (with a minimum weight & maximum ROF) 400FPS hard limit with 10m MED, semi-auto only (inc pistols) 425 FPS hard limit no MED, BASR's 500FPS MED 15m, Bolt Action designated anti-materiel rifles (with a minimum weight) 600FPS 25m MED, BFG's can be thrown overarm but only hard enough to clear obstacles upto 2.5m high, or to get them in through open windows...

 
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I'm with Ian on this, I adopt the 'hose' approach unless I have them absolutely bang to rights and then I'll normally just put one into somewhere soft (inner thigh is a favourite) so they KNOW it's happened. Like he said, it's an adventure sport and you're not actually going to pick up an injury from me shooting a 5 round burst at you!

People who blatantly just ignore hits annoy me but what can you do? Tell a marshall and move on, it's just a game after all and there's no prizes for winning.

 
at our site our marshals(well one in particular) pays attention, listening to take your hits shouts etc, and watches them. if he then believes they aint taking their hits then he shoots them to be sure. then he goes over and tells them off. repeat offenders are kicked off. to the point one of my mates i was playing against was hiding behind a tire wall. i shot him in the head as he looked ove, says aw, ducks down stands up shoots, i shoot him in the head again. this happened a few times and hed been told off in between and so got kicked, just from the rest of the day. he still comes but is more reliable that way, just his game tactics suck( lying in the open with his lmg shooting at a high well defended building.

 
For me, I'll usually do the short burst/semi auto, but if they don't respond, it's full auto berserker to the face.

I do think that the people who are worse for taking hits are the ones who think they are better than everyone else because "merhhh, no one can kill me! I'm better than them, merhh"

However, under the heat of the moment, I'm sure we all haven't taken our hits at some point due to the adrenaline rush or because you're too busy focusing on something else. I know I've been guilty of it at least once or twice.

 
The biggest issue with people not taking hits, isn't so much the fact that they aren't taking their hits, it's the knock on effect that they cause. If I see someone cheating I'll generally let them off, it's just one person, they'll realise they were a dick sooner or later, and if they don't I'll just count on it catching up to them sooner or later, no point letting it bother me unless they're causing the team to lose or something - A marshal gets the nod and I'll trust them to sort it out.

But, if there's one player who gets shot to shit and just carries on playing, then the person shooting the shit out of them is going to get annoyed, that much is a given.

If it keeps happening, then it gets to the point where people start to think, "Well, if he's not going to take my hits, I'm not going to take his" and then you end up with one person on either team moaning about cheaters.

This then gets to people's heads and every time they doubt someone, they will just think they're cheating, and before you know it you get a team of cheaters against a team of cheaters and it becomes an unmarshallably (<< I'm amazed there isn't a red squiggle under that btw, good job Google Chrome) wank day.

 
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