DMR's

[Okto Eight Milsim]

Some sites get a bit twitchy about CO2 guns. You might find some resistance.

 

[Raggedy_man]

While we are chatting can I have your opinions on this - Stark-Arms-VFC-S17-GBB-Airsoft-Pistol. Before I spend my hard earned pennies on it.

http://www.actionhobbies.co.uk/Stark-Arms-VFC-S17-GBB-Airsoft-Pistol-Tan_A1ET36.aspx#.VbdghvlViko

Thanks folks.

 

[proffrink]

Not sure why you'd go for one over the TM given the price is near identical. They don't perform quite as well out of the box, but the external finish is supposed to be slightly better on the later batches.

 

[Raggedy_man]

Not sure why you'd go for one over the TM given the price is near identical. They don't perform quite as well out of the box, but the external finish is supposed to be slightly better on the later batches.

Due to me being a utter rookie Prof!

 

[Okto Eight Milsim]

I thought TM but doesnt the VFC have a metal slide?

 

[proffrink]

It does have a metal slide, which is something that you don't want if you need performance. One of the larger reasons why TMs shoot better out of the box - better gas efficiency and more money in the budget to spend on internals.

Due to me being a utter rookie Prof!

It's still good. You'll have fun with it for sure.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Why do people have this belief that TM internals are better? They don't spend more on the internals, they don't spend a great deal, full stop.

The only reason they last so long is because the lighter weight of the moving parts puts a lot less stress on everything. You put TM parts in a WE or a SA and they'll break at the same rate the WE or SA parts will. (I've done it) They're not better, they're just under less stress.

With a TM you get longevity over all else, they aren't better for range or accuracy, I really don't understand where that myth comes from - TM fanboyism no doubt.

TM is better for cold weather performance and gas efficiency, which again is just due to the lighter parts, but in my opinion you miss out on the satisfaction of metal on metal noises and heavier recoil. Plus it just feels like a bit of a con to buy a plastic gun that feels like a £5 springer but spend more on it than I would on something that feels a lot better. TM's plastics are horrible.

I like taking things to bits and fiddling with them, so if you're like me, I'd advise getting a cheaper, better feeling, metal pistol, learning how it works and upgrading parts to steel as they fail. The WE also has CO2 mags available for winter use so the TM working better in the cold becomes a moot point.

You can also make the WE just as snappy, if not more so, by using a stronger recoil spring and CO2 more generally. Though the snappiness of the recoil is again, in my opinion at least, a moot point, because even when it's less snappy than a TM, it still cycles faster than you can fire it.

 

[Raggedy_man]

So a WE Glock would be better than the Stark one I just posted?

I love starting a good debate.

 

[proffrink]

Why do people have this belief that TM internals are better? They don't spend more on the internals, they don't spend a great deal, full stop.

The only reason they last so long is because the lighter weight of the moving parts puts a lot less stress on everything. You put TM parts in a WE or a SA and they'll break at the same rate the WE or SA parts will. (I've done it) They're not better, they're just under less stress.

With a TM you get longevity over all else, they aren't better for range or accuracy, I really don't understand where that myth comes from - TM fanboyism no doubt.

TM is better for cold weather performance and gas efficiency, which again is just due to the lighter parts, but in my opinion you miss out on the satisfaction of metal on metal noises and heavier recoil. Plus it just feels like a bit of a con to buy a plastic gun that feels like a £5 springer but spend more on it than I would on something that feels a lot better. TM's plastics are horrible.

I like taking things to bits and fiddling with them, so if you're like me, I'd advise getting a cheaper, better feeling, metal pistol, learning how it works and upgrading parts to steel as they fail. The WE also has CO2 mags available for winter use so the TM working better in the cold becomes a moot point.

You can also make the WE just as snappy, if not more so, by using a stronger recoil spring and CO2 more generally. Though the snappiness of the recoil is again, in my opinion at least, a moot point, because even when it's less snappy than a TM, it still cycles faster than you can fire it.

They do spend more time on the tolerances of all of their guns, and this is true to the point that they do make the most accurate pistols out of the box. People love to hate TM because they think they know something everyone else doesn't and like to feel happy that the WE they were sold over the counter at their local shop is the best there is. Unfortunately, it's really as simple as they know what they're doing, they've done it the longest and they do it the best. When you're so tightly constrained by the Japanese airsoft power limits, you have to be good. Gas efficiency obviously matters a lot there (what with the green gas restrictions), and that's a large reason as to why they use plastic slides.

The real fact of the matter is that retailers make a much larger margin of profit on WE and KWA and so selling them is great. Prices on TM guns have always been managed right out of the factory and everyone gets the same price. WE is more popular in the UK because it's cheaper; people like them because they own them and because they use a bit more metal.

Let's not forget that the majority of companies simply clone their designs too - that's how good they are at doing what they do. I'd never tell someone to spend more than they're comfortable with spending, but if you have £150 and want the absolute best performance, part compatibility and longevity then TM is who you go for. If you then want to dump a load of money on a metal kit then do so, but you can't have your cake and eat it - metal slides will always slow down your cycle time and produce more wear and even more so if it's a soft metal that will scratch very easily and not stay lubricated for long.

When it comes to range and accuracy: Yes, they do. The barrels are generally of a higher quality and the internal tolerances are far greater than those of other brands. They simply are more accurate and do go further. Not by a whole lot, but they do. If it makes you feel happier with your purchase by thinking it performs as well as the original TM design then that's fine, but it's false. There's a reason why the TM Hi-Capa is the most popular competition pistol.

If you don't like the plastic feeling then buy a metal kit. And saying TM's plastics are 'horrible' is absolutely ludicrous when they have some of the best looking finishes out there:

So a WE Glock would be better than the Stark one I just posted?

I love starting a good debate.

I'd say Stark Arms is better than WE, but (unsurprisingly) I'd maintain that TM is better than both performance wise.

 

[Raggedy_man]

So which are the brands to avoid at all costs?

 

[proffrink]

Frankly I'd say all of the commonly available Glocks are very skirmishable. KWA, TM, WE, Stark Arms/VFC - they're all good. Just avoid your nondescript JBBG brands and you'll be fine. Obviously each has its own upsides and downsides, but I wouldn't be able to list them all.

Nothing is a bad choice here, but I'd still obviously stick by what I've said above and go for the TM simply because it's the best performer and has the reputation to go along with it. If you can't stand the plastic slide, the KWA, WE or Stark Arms may be the better call. Plenty here use the WE Glock 17 and would probably recommend it, so that seems like a good option too.

The Stark Arms one has slightly worse trade marks than the WE and TM (if you're into that sort of thing), but by-and-large - if this is your first Glock - you won't be able to notice a difference between the four when firing them. Just stay away from your those JBBG types. Expect to spend around £100 - if it's cheaper then something might be wrong.

 

[Raggedy_man]

Thanks Prof! I have also noticed electric pistols which I cant find many reviews for which I find odd.

I feel like a kid in a candy store, a lethal and deadly candy store.

 

[TacMaster]

So which are the brands to avoid at all costs?

If you ever fancy a Cold 1911 style pistol, avoid WE's 1911s at all costs. Other than that most brands bar VFC and Ares are OK.

 

[sp00n]

Thanks Prof! I have also noticed electric pistols which I cant find many reviews for which I find odd.

I feel like a kid in a candy store, a lethal and deadly candy store.

Have you looked in the review section?? There is my g18c aep review

 

[Sitting Duck]

electric pistols - only if you get 'em real cheap under £50 at TWG etc...

get 1 or 2 ( or more ) primary aeg's, then decide on pistol/dmr/sniper etc....

 

[M_P]

If you ever fancy a Cold 1911 style pistol, avoid WE's 1911s at all costs. Other than that most brands bar VFC and Ares are OK.

Nothing wrong with vfc pistols

 

[TacMaster]

Nothing wrong with vfc pistols

I meant manufacturers as a whole. I've not heard anything about VFC's pistols, do they make the Stark Arms G17s?

 

[darrenb]

I've got a we glock 17 and really like it.
I don't use it as much as i want so gas efficiency isn't a worry for me. The recoil makes up for having to spend an extra few quid on gas anyway.
If your going to get one then don't get it from action hobbies. It is my local store and i like it but it's much cheaper elsewhere.

 

[Raggedy_man]

I meant manufacturers as a whole. I've not heard anything about VFC's pistols, do they make the Stark Arms G17s?

I'm somewhat curious to know the answer to that question too!

 

[proffrink]

VFC are Stark Arms - they decided to go with a different brand name for their 'ultra realistic' series of pistols and the like but it's the same factory.