Adventures in Wonderland or who the “fruitcage” is ALICE?

[The Waco Kid]

Before the forces of righteous freedom became enamoured of MOLLE, they’d had a long standing flirtation with her older sister ALICE.

Don’t get me wrong.
 

Molle is reliable, strong, solid and generally stays put on her own. All great things in a soldier.

Alice well, bit more of a wild child.
 

Where Molle arrives to the party on time, Alice is late; drinks all the booze; sleeps with the band and legs it with all the weed. 
 

Alice can only be tamed with a good supply of paracord and cable ties. She’s just built different.

This isn’t to say MOLLE and ALICE can’t work together. Alice used 2” webbing so quite a few molle pouches will fit and there are adaptors. Malice clips also work well.

 

[The Waco Kid]

 The Green tick.

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RHS: Large Alice (60L+). LC2 version Only issued in OD. LC1 has different lid strap adjusters.

Partially filled. 1 = 3x mag pockets, not on medium; 2 = center sustainment pouch is bigger; 3 = ALICE modular attachment also fits older pattern fitting still used on machete and bayonet frogs; 4 = 1 quart bottle and IFAK installed.

LHS: Medium Alice (30-40L). Late LC2 model in woodland camo. Patrol bag, Bivi bag, change of clothes and “dry bag” liner pretty much fill it. Sustainment pouch’s will each hold a couple of stripped MRE’s, poncho or canteen and cup. 
Minor modifications like strap buckles. 
 

TOP: Complete MSS this will fill up the large pack. It’s in UCP and we don’t talk about UCP in this house.

BOTTOM: ALICE “deuce gear” with Y-harness. Airsoftized.

 The Green tick.

View attachment 97667

 

RHS: Large Alice (60L+). LC2 version Only issued in OD. LC1 has different lid strap adjusters.

Partially filled. 1 = 3x mag pockets, not on medium; 2 = center sustainment pouch is bigger; 3 = ALICE modular attachment also fits older pattern fitting still used on machete and bayonet frogs; 4 = 1 quart bottle and IFAK installed.

LHS: Medium Alice (30-40L). Late LC2 model in woodland camo. Patrol bag, Bivi bag, change of clothes and “dry bag” liner pretty much fill it. Sustainment pouch’s will each hold a couple of stripped MRE’s, poncho or canteen and cup. 
Minor modifications like strap buckles. 
 

TOP: Complete MSS this will fill up the large pack. It’s in UCP and we don’t talk about UCP in this house.

BOTTOM: ALICE “deuce gear” with Y-harness. Airsoftized.

Gear review by brent0331 on you tube.

The core or the ALICE modular system. The slide keeper/Alice clip.

View attachment 97672
 

From left: Chicom flimsy shite. Dutch issue clip - good to go. Old US issue - good to go.

The copy clip feels thin and the gate slides freely. The Dutch and US ones are beefier and the gate has resistance. They are also usually a snugger fit on a belt etc. 
 

It’s standard to back up the clips with a cable tie or loop of paracord once installed. Pass it through the eye and either side of the webbing you are fitting it two. Then fasten.

 

[Tommikka]

Molle is reliable, strong, solid and generally stays put on her own. 

Click to shrink...

As long as it’s put together properly, and depending on the type of strap

A full on, multilayered, thick MOLLE strap will pretty much stay put as soon as it sees the base, but will bring on swearing to cold fingers attempting to get some movement in the strap to attempt a weave.

But a cheap chinese airsoft / paintball MOLLE strap will float away at the slightest breeze, and the uneducated will be seen with flapping pouches due to the failure to weave —— unless they fly away after meeting the first bush

All these systems are just that, a load carrying system.  The best could be a well stitched purpose built rig, configured for the individual and role.

(Cue tailoring shops around all garrisons in the UK constructing/securing custom webbing systems) 

But that relies on the role staying the same, or multiple rigs ready for each role.

Cue the change of name from webbing to load carrying system, and ALICE being one of many steps between old school slip on pouches with belt & yoke webbing rigs to (almost) full modularity under MOLLE - until the next systems 

 

[JimFromHorsham]

I was born into airsoft too late to appreciate ALICE , I went straight from 58pt in my yoof to MALICE clips as a full blown plastic death warrior …

Malice clips …

View attachment 97674
 

Paraclete … oh how your soft silky straps helped my fingers heal .

anyway , I digress … 

let’s talk ALICE
 

 

[The Waco Kid]

I notice it’s the right hand….

 

[The Waco Kid]

LC2 Alice pack straps and hip pad. There are still after market options which are often better than the issue ones. The Tactical Tailor ones being quite sort after.

With minor mods the various models of external “plastic” frame for Molle issue packs will work with an Alice pack.
 
The Molle hip pad is a very nice upgrade for load carriage by all accounts. View attachment 97678
 

Fairly standard medium Alice set up is:

1 Quart canteen and E-tool carrier in the left and IFAK and 2 Quart on the right.

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The E-tool seems rarely to have been carrier on the web gear and generally moved to the pack. IFAKs don’t seem to be have carried on the webbing that often back in the day. Some units only got the dressing pouch anyway. 
 

View attachment 97681The solid insert for the IFAK could be uncomfortable worn on the web belt or shoulder harness and if worn might be added to the top of the training pack (butt pack).

IFAK content varied as they were by theatre. So soldiers should have had desert supplies for Op Desert Storm.

The little pocket on canteen carriers was originally for salt tablets. Later on iodine/chlorine water purifying tablets mini box lighters went in there.  The 2 quart shoulder strap (utility strap) is run through the pouch buckles and used to compress the whole pack.

 

[The Waco Kid]

US brew kit.

View attachment 97682

1) 2 quart canteen.

2) “NBC” drinking cap usually on one of the 1 quart canteens.

3) 1 quart canteen, there is a soft bodied version.

4) Cup and nested “natick” stove.
The stove is just the ww2 one reissued so they could heat drinks that came in MRE’s. The M1910 mug (L shaped handle) is will work as well. That style was preferred by some.

5) After market lid. Bend the edges to get a better fit. Or use aluminium foil.

6) After market Foldacup. Compact way to increase field cooking options and a bit better to drink from than the metal mug.

Not shown:

Hydration cap - Cap with flexible tube turns 2 quart or soft canteen into a hydration system.

Spork - comes in the MRE. But plenty of civi ones around.

Aluminium/Tin foil hat - light weight lid for mug and a bit to stand trioxane/hexamine/alcohol/c4 block on.

There is a second model of stove that the USMC (and maybe others) got for Desert Storm. It nests too and has a top grill which supports the mug  rather than jam onto it. 

It was pretty common to modify the natick stove with wire to make a better pot stand/act as a grill

The stove set up is okay. Servicemen often bought copies to turn in so they could keep the originals.
 

My personal opinion is it’s not the greatest wood burner and honestly the British cooker or BCB one is just a better stand from the get go. Essentially it works, pretty unbreakable and is very light.

Airsoftised ALICE deuce gear.

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Y-harness with pace beads and compass/dressing pouch on the shoulder. Often the pouch is inverted.

Large “LC3” belt (actually IIFS kit) plus belt pad it cut from kip mat and tied in with paracord.

RHS: 1 quart canteen carrier; M12 holster;  Small arms magazine pouch (copy); aftermarket compass pouch.

LHS: Dump pouch is in the spot where the e-tool carrier or additional canteen carrier would go. Empty canteen carriers were sometimes used as dump pouches. 2 x small arms magazine pouches (copies).

 

[The Waco Kid]

Deuce gear parts breakdown:

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Y-harness. The clips to attach to the waist belt are notorious for being uncomfortable. For me pad works fine.

Very commonly replaced with paracord. On copy y-harnesses the clips tend to be pretty weak, definitely worth changing.

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Cravat bandage in dressing pouch. The lenstatic compass fits these to but they are a bit chunky. 
Most of these pouches attach with a single Alice clip. There is a two slot version though.

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Strobe pouches are sometimes fitted to the shoulder but the pouches themselves are rare.

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Fulton stupid lights can be worn on the shoulder too. By the eighties small maglights is similar were often Secured with LBE bands (elastic loops). Radio handsets were often hung here as well.

At the front the harness is designed to clip to the mag pouches but it can be run straight on to the belt.

View attachment 97729
 

Go Airforce!

The older H-harness was often still sort out. Partly for comfort and likely kudos by some. Blackhawk and others made H-gear to fit Alice, sometimes incorporating hydration sleeves.

View attachment 97774

Not uncommon to see a mixture of suspenders on operational pictures.

 

[The Waco Kid]

There are many varieties of pistol belt issued with the ALICE system. They are sized but have quite a bit of adjustment.

Initially the buckle from the M1956 pistol belt was used (LC1)

Then the quick release buckle.

View attachment 97775
 

The press in (LC2) release buckle fades to a very pale grey over time.

The fasted buckle is the later standard  and the one usually seen with the TLVB

View attachment 97776

What is common is that Alice belts have two rows of eyelets, with the lower ones to hang the old M1910 fittings.

The adjustment retainers vary and the quick release and fastex buckles have extenders available to go over body armour or cloth weather kit.

View attachment 97777

 

[The Waco Kid]

Small arms magazine pouches for 3x M16 30rd magazines.

View attachment 97787
 

  Like most of the ALICE pouches they are held in place by two Alice clips that go through slots (A) on the back.
 

 In addition the mag pouch has a tab (T) and eyelet to clip the harness strap onto for support.

Loops (G) with securing straps are to hold grenades. This pouch has damage (D) to the lid. I repaired/altered it on the inside as it’s actually my IFAK pouch.

 The pouch is reinforced with plastic and a pair of thin strips inside to separate magazines.

View attachment 97788
 

It’s pretty common to find the mag dividers cut or removed on surplus pouches. Sometimes the grenade loops too.

The Alice pouch lid fasteners have a bit of a reputation for fragility.

There are a heck of is lot of these pouches still knocking around with intact clips however.

There are some similar mag pouches including the Lincloe issued the the USMC in Vietnam.

View attachment 97792

 

[The Waco Kid]

Airsoftised mag pouches.

View attachment 97816
 

These are copies (I think Miltec). They lack the US marking and come with poor quality Alice clips. Otherwise build is fine for skirmishing.

Dimensions are slightly bigger if anything. Which I made use off.

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I’ve added a layer of kip map to the bottom so AEG mags sit a bit higher. 
 

The card tapped to the dividers eliminates battle rattle and makes reinserting mags easier.

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Not sure if this was down with rea mags but the lincloe pouches have individual pockets.

When I can be bothered I may swap the fake Alice clips for Malice clips just so the pouches are super stable for skirmishing.

 

[The Waco Kid]

M12 holster, aka the suicide holster.

View attachment 97819
 

They were made by quite a few firms, Bianchi and Cathy being two.

”Suicide holster” allegedly comes from the awkward draw and people pulling the holster off with the gun under pressure. ?  

It’s sized for the M9 and usually fit 1911’s and Glocks too. 
 

View attachment 97820

The draw technique is different to high speed holsters but gives good protection to the pistol.

The holster is ambidextrous and uses a specific quick belt mount. This is also used on the Bianchi M1025/1030 pistol mag pouch.

View attachment 97821
 

There are thumb break kits, drop leg adapters and shoulder/tanker fittings available.

View attachment 97823View attachment 97822

With the accessories and ability to hold a lot of different pistols it almost lives up to being the “Universal holster”.

View attachment 97825

Are we having fun yet?

 

[The Waco Kid]

Bianchi brand double pistol mag pouch. Usually seen on military security and police belt kit.

View attachment 98229

There are double (shown) and quad mag versions. The Lower stud accommodates single stack mags.

View attachment 98230

It has a plastic insert so protects mags better than the standard ALICE version which is just fabric.

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View attachment 98231

 

[The Waco Kid]

ALICE goes high speed with:

the Tactical Load Bearing Vest (Enhanced)

not only TACTICAL but also ENHANCED! ??

Technically not ALICE but IIFS. Although this and the associated training pack were designed to integrate with it.
View attachment 101718

Prior to the TLBV(E) the was the non-enhanced Tactical load bearing vest.

View attachment 101722

It had vertically orientated magazine pockets. It is therefore less cool, even the model looks disappointed. ?

 

[The Waco Kid]

The TLBV was issued in woodland camo ? , black for police units and to Michael Biehn when he was in charge of Seal team 6.

View attachment 101723

Yes I cropped out Charlie Sheen.

Desert versions, like ALICE, turn up. But unlike ALICE I’m not 100% sure it was actually on general issue.

There is a 40mm grenadier version too.

View attachment 101724
 

In use the TLBV replaces the ALICE Y suspenders and also solves some of the problems with it.

The shoulders are generously padded and the lower edge of the vest has multiple belt loops so supports the pistol belt very well. 

View attachment 101725

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The TLBV has a massive range of adjustment and integrates pretty well with the PASGT vest and IBA.

 

[The Waco Kid]

The  rat panels are mesh and do not cover much of the torso, minimising heat build up.

View attachment 101728
 

Features:

ALICE mounting points across the back of the shoulders (A) and front of each shoulder with press stud loop.

View attachment 101729
 

Alice mounting points in the lower back plus hardware (H) for the trading pack (butt pack). There is a specific version to match the vest.

View attachment 101730
 

A training pack will also mount across the upper back as well.

Two frag grenade pouches (F), one on each lower front of the vest. These will hold a compass or two field dressings.
 

View attachment 101731
 

Pockets for six M16 type magazines, most polymer ones should also fit.

The upper pockets hold two (2) mags and the lower one (1).

View attachment 101732

All the pockets have press stud and velcro closures.

The vest from has two adjustable 25mm buckles and whatever waist belt you attach.

 

[Lozart]

I have a TLBV-E in my collection of manky old kit. While the mag pouches will fit two STANAG mags, most PMAG types are so snug as to make it almost pointless plus the baseplates effectively prevent any double stacking in the top two pouches (same goes for STANAGs with Magpuls). The cord locks on the stringy side pieces are also about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and break quite easily (spares can be found in the dark recesses of ebay if you look carefully though). Highly advise either tying the cords in a knot under the lock or taping them up.

 

[The Waco Kid]

In summary:

The TLBV is not a bad option for airsoft.

It had a massive range of adjustment, smaller players will have the pouches in the front. For bigger players they will sit on the sides.

Originals and many copies are of decent construction and by omitting the belt it makes a light weight rig. 

It’s well ventilated and easy to take on and off quickly.

Down side for some is the limitation on what can be carried it a belt rig isn’t added.

I have a TLBV-E in my collection of manky old kit. While the mag pouches will fit two STANAG mags, most PMAG types are so snug as to make it almost pointless plus the baseplates effectively prevent any double stacking in the top two pouches (same goes for STANAGs with Magpuls). The cord locks on the stringy side pieces are also about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and break quite easily (spares can be found in the dark recesses of ebay if you look carefully though). Highly advise either tying the cords in a knot under the lock or taping them up.

Click to shrink...

 
Yep, definitely worth backing up the cord locks with a knot or “toaster” toggle. 

View attachment 101748

My PTS Pmags work okay. I do draw and insert the rear mag first so it’s stepped above the front one. Might make a difference?

I can see the old rubber ranger pulls being a no go, ‘coz they is Thicc….. ?

 

[The Waco Kid]

Of course you can get the pouch wet and jam two mags in overnight to stretch it out.  ?

 

[Lozart]

Of course you can get the pouch wet and jam two mags in overnight to stretch it out.  ?

Click to shrink...

Might just give that a try!