Paypal fees.

[HodgePig]

According to the Policing and Crime Act 2017, we don't use firearms:

View attachment 54039

Click to shrink...

" ....for the purpose of this Act".

That act being policing. And having no influence over an international company and it's policies.

PayPal state illegal items separately, so it's not even a case of legality, it's a case of definition.

Whether or not any country's laws or policies define them separately or assigned different response criteria or anything........ they are still called firearms, so PayPal can apply their terms banning them.

Honestly, it's the first forum I've seen people actively promoting use of PP G&S or payment platform at all in the last year or so since the revisions. I'm actually trying to be helpful but clearly failing to achieve that.

 

[Cannonfodder]

" ....for the purpose of this Act".

That act being policing. And having no influence over an international company and it's policies.

Click to shrink...

That act being legislation which governs (amongst other things) that airsoft guns under a certain muzzle energy are, under UK law, not firearms. To think the laws in a country don't affect how a company operates there is frankly ridiculous

 

[Tommikka]

Not sure I'm reading this right, but seems like you're telling me I'm wrong, yet I've just re-searched and still can't find anything anywhere that doesn't confirm their global policy on firearms or all classes/categories

https://www.paypal.com/uk/legalhub/paypal/acceptableuse-full

View attachment 54032
Very happy to be wrong, as we might get some protection, so a link would be great if you have one regarding any changes to their global blanket ban on firearms

Click to shrink...

I’m not necessarily telling you that you are wrong.
I qualified with the need to check policies (that always applies to anything that has a “restricted / prohibited policy”, especially including postage when reading on forums that Joe Bloggs successfully posted x item

Here’s a post from me on a paintball forum circa 2017 had the PayPal FAQ which re-allowed both paintball and airsoft
The FAQ at that time restated that firearms were not permitted but (as long as legal in the applicable territory) that airsoft and paintball were permitted

The original FAQ location from 2017 no longer exists and that question doesn’t come up in the PayPal help area, so it’s not conclusive

PayPal allows paintball

Hot news ... don’t know when it happened, but PayPals exclusion of Paintball under their firearms policy was lifted. If it’s legal in the country concerned then PayPal allows it It was dramatic when PayPal (and Facebook) were anti Paintball as part of anti gun, but very quiet when things get...

www.p8ntballer.com

What is PayPal’s policy on transactions that involve firearms?
We don’t allow PayPal members to buy or sell any kind of firearm, whether it’s in working order or not. The same goes for certain firearm parts and ammunition.
For example, using PayPal, you can’t buy or sell:

• Any firearm, including rifles, shotguns, and handguns, whether they’re for sport and recreation, collectibles, or curio or relic firearms.
• Firearm parts, including but not limited to receivers and frames, silencers, and kits designed to modify guns so that they fire automatically. High capacity magazines, multi-burst trigger activators, and camouflaging firearm containers are other items in this category.
• Ammunition, including propellants like gunpowder or blank ammunition; ammunition or cartridge cases; and primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for any firearm.

Stun gun sales are allowed for U.S. residents, but only if the transaction is permitted by law in both the buyer's and seller's jurisdictions. (PayPal account holders outside the U.S. can’t buy or sell stun guns.) Before they complete a sale, U.S. sellers must make sure that the transaction is legal in both locations.

Related items that you can buy and sell using PayPal include paintball guns, blank guns, and air-soft guns, as long as such transactions are legal in the applicable jurisdiction. All of these items must display the markings required by law, must not be convertible to shoot a lethal projectile, and can’t include blank ammunition.

 

[HodgePig]

I’m not necessarily telling you that you are wrong.
I qualified with the need to check policies (that always applies to anything that has a “restricted / prohibited policy”, especially including postage when reading on forums that Joe Bloggs successfully posted x item

Here’s a post from me on a paintball forum circa 2017 had the PayPal FAQ which re-allowed both paintball and airsoft
The FAQ at that time restated that firearms were not permitted but (as long as legal in the applicable territory) that airsoft and paintball were permitted

The original FAQ location from 2017 no longer exists and that question doesn’t come up in the PayPal help area, so it’s not conclusive

PayPal allows paintball

Hot news ... don’t know when it happened, but PayPals exclusion of Paintball under their firearms policy was lifted. If it’s legal in the country concerned then PayPal allows it It was dramatic when PayPal (and Facebook) were anti Paintball as part of anti gun, but very quiet when things get...

www.p8ntballer.com

What is PayPal’s policy on transactions that involve firearms?
We don’t allow PayPal members to buy or sell any kind of firearm, whether it’s in working order or not. The same goes for certain firearm parts and ammunition.
For example, using PayPal, you can’t buy or sell:

• Any firearm, including rifles, shotguns, and handguns, whether they’re for sport and recreation, collectibles, or curio or relic firearms.
• Firearm parts, including but not limited to receivers and frames, silencers, and kits designed to modify guns so that they fire automatically. High capacity magazines, multi-burst trigger activators, and camouflaging firearm containers are other items in this category.
• Ammunition, including propellants like gunpowder or blank ammunition; ammunition or cartridge cases; and primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for any firearm.

Stun gun sales are allowed for U.S. residents, but only if the transaction is permitted by law in both the buyer's and seller's jurisdictions. (PayPal account holders outside the U.S. can’t buy or sell stun guns.) Before they complete a sale, U.S. sellers must make sure that the transaction is legal in both locations.

Related items that you can buy and sell using PayPal include paintball guns, blank guns, and air-soft guns, as long as such transactions are legal in the applicable jurisdiction. All of these items must display the markings required by law, must not be convertible to shoot a lethal projectile, and can’t include blank ammunition.

Click to shrink...

Like I said, they used to specifically state Airsoft as being allowed. Then changed their terms, globally banned firearms, no longer state them as an exclusion.
I'd say that's more conclusive than assuming / inferring otherwise.

 

[Colin Allen]

Like I said, they used to specifically state Airsoft as being allowed. Then changed their terms, globally banned firearms, no longer state them as an exclusion.
I'd say that's more conclusive than assuming / inferring otherwise.

Click to shrink...

That would be a clincher in the UK if the Policing and Crime Act 2017 did not clearly state that compliant airsoft guns were NOT firearms. As you pointed out, the act states that they are not firearms "for the purpose of this Act"; however, given the somewhat porous nature of legislation in the UK, that statement also applies outside the purpose of that Act.

I work with a number of lawyers and discussed this with some of them when the 2017 Act was passed; their unanimous view was that compliant airsoft weapons are NOT firearms.

A couple of years ago, I raised a case against a seller who had misrepresented the airsoft gun that I bought using PayPal. My claim made it clear that the item was an airsoft gun; PayPal decided the case in my favour.

 

[Punisher3990]

To help clear this up, I asked them directly. EDIT: I have replied and asked a more direct question to get a clearer response

 

[Adolf Hamster]

To help clear this up, I asked them directly. EDIT: I have replied and asked a more direct question to get a clearer response

Click to shrink...

Good work actually contacting them, genuinely surprised you got a reply even if it is a page full of non-commitence.

That said i'm getting the vibe given how much they reference "local laws" it might boil down to "if the sale is a legal sale in [insert jurisdiction] then we cool".

Of course the legality of sales in the uk might be interesting in terms of just how far a private seller should be expected to go in establishing if the buyer has the "i'm an airsofter" defence that makes the transaction 100% above board.

 

[HodgePig]

I also finally got a sort of answer, and PayPal themselves not being able to confirm because there is not definitive list of exclusions/allowances is enough for me to not be using this as a seller for any kind of protection:

"PayPal's public policy does not specifically provide a detailed list of which airsoft replicas, imitation firearms, or airsoft parts are permitted or prohibited. Because of that, I am unable to give a definitive confirmation that a private sale of an airsoft replica or airsoft parts between non-business account holders would be allowed under PayPal policy."


And no, I wasn't being rude, I had a call and the chat timed out before I could respond
And yes, I've messaged back to say thanks

 

[TheFull9]

Total waste of pixels at this point.. if you don't want to use it then don't use it, people who do want to, can. As has been stated it often does cover/has covered people for RIF and IF sales. Possibly it won't in every case, but I don't know of any other common payment system that people have accounts for and are happy to use which also offers at least a reasonable chance of protection for both parties.
All of this not taking in to account that a huge portion of private sales are small parts, accessories and tac gear which are all fine.

Lost count of the number of times I've read one of these 2 stories on here (or facebook back when sales groups were a thing):
A. "I paid for X but they never sent it/they turned out to be scamming, luckily I'd used G&S and I've got my money back now"
B. "I paid for X but used F&F and the item was bollocks/the seller never sent it and now I'm totally out of pocket, wish I'd used G&S"

 

[Punisher3990]

PayPal is great, sure but it's not the shining hero its made out to be all the time. I have been fucked by it almost as many times as I have been saved by it as a seller.

A determined and convincing scumbag can easily use its policies against an honest seller.

"Oh, PayPal, the item's not as described; look at my obvious duplicate item with a huge crack on it, please refund me" * PayPal refunds them, and I lose £100 and the item*

"Oh, PayPal, the item was never delivered; please give me a refund." Seller gives proof of postage and delivery photo "Oh, PayPal, that's not my house; the seller is lying" *Paypal sides with them and refunds, again, I lose both*

Sold a custom PC build once; they removed the GPU, took a picture, and made a claim saying the wrong GPU was installed. When I protested, they phoned PayPal and complained, and I lost a £1400 PC and the money

It got to the point where I have a database with almost 20 pictures per item detailing every little thing. Literally almost like a court case per item to prevent this happening.

Anyone who has looked at some of my listings here probs noticed I go into a lot of detail. Even mentioned on my MP7 listing that the 12mm > 14mm adaptor is a bit tight; gotta give no possible reason for a wrong description claim.

We are lucky that the vast majority here are honest, but everywhere else PayPal can be as much of a weapon as it is a shield

PS: on those claims above, I didn't even get the PayPal fee or postage back

 

[TheFull9]

That's a big reply to a claim I did not and am not making i.e. that paypal is perfect. Do you have a solution/better idea in mind?
To reiterate my previous post, I don't know of any other common payment system that people have accounts for and are happy to use which also offers at least a reasonable chance of protection for both parties.
The problems you describe are the inevitable and unavoidable potential pitfalls of doing business online as a whole.

 

[Punisher3990]

That's a big reply to a claim I did not and am not making i.e. that paypal is perfect. Do you have a solution/better idea in mind?
To reiterate my previous post, I don't know of any other common payment system that people have accounts for and are happy to use which also offers at least a reasonable chance of protection for both parties.
The problems you describe are the inevitable and unavoidable potential pitfalls of doing business online as a whole.

Click to shrink...

The reply to your comment was an error. This forum saves replies when you click off the site or go onto a new tab etc. I was going to reply to your comment but decided to give a general statement instead, hence why my comment had nothing related to yours. I didn't notice that your comment was still quoted as scrolling up and down is annoying on my phone when the keyboard is up. Honestly I have to re-edit 4-5time as my phones keyboard/screen is tiny and I make spelling errors due to hitting wrong keys

Will remove the quoted part

 

[Cannonfodder]

Words

Click to shrink...

I can't be the only one who thinks that reply stinks of AI chat bot

 

[HodgePig]

I can't be the only one who thinks that reply stinks of AI chat bot

Click to shrink...

I was on the phone to her having had to do authentication and needed to take a work call so asked if we could switch back to chat (plus wanted written confirmation), which she did.
She was very real

 

[Tommikka]

I can't be the only one who thinks that reply stinks of AI chat bot

Click to shrink...

A help desk person in a text chat can seem like AI, they will typically have a series of scripts from trigger questions and may be picking set answers or typing what they can see on their help system

A person with some form of authority to think for themselves among the options available to them

I was on the phone to her having had to do authentication and needed to take a work call so asked if we could switch back to chat (plus wanted written confirmation), which she did.
She was very real

Click to shrink...

As a side drift, back in the last century and through the millennium I was one of a dieing breed of employed system admins on a software project that still had its own hardware, and we gradually migrated to contract supported hardware. That meant that I and colleagues were both the help desk and the tech support for our regions plus we would need to call out a contract engineer for certain hardware. But we couldn’t call out an engineer, we had to first go through the call centre help desk to go through their diagnosis script before they would then refer to an engineer - mostly a standard help desk database script beginning with “have you turned it off and on?”. But they also had question scripts that we had written for them !
I would have my own scripted answers to work the way through the

From the vagueness of the answers given to @HodgePigot it’s likely that the non-commital elements are human based - the question is generic on whether Airsoft is allowed, and the human probably knows that it will really come down to the precise words put into a PayPal transaction

Eg if you pay for an “airsoft gun” or a “realistic imitation firearm” and the sale goes wrong then on initiating a claim the systems process could get upset by the words gun/firearm and trigger a prohibited item rejection, then you end up in a battle with the AI hoping for a human intervention that doesn’t also get triggered by those words
Whereas “airsoft gear”, “RIF” might get through unchallenged and the claims/dispute process moves on
There is also the matter of “legal in the region” and the grey zone of real life cross over accessories


This chat response is similar to the legacy FAQ that I had earlier - airsoft and paintball aren’t fully prohibited but could fall foul on a case by case basis