Probably a dumb question?

[Tormen7ed]

Hey,

   so first introduced to HPA when I picked up a KWA vector already set up with with this (Tippman bottle, Ninja reg, line, tapped mag) and first though "this is pretty cool" but that was under back garden conditions. Trying it out whilst skirmishing my thoughts then almost immediately went to "I can't reload" or "i can't get comfortable" though i think this is because the female adapter had about 2/3" of metal to fit what i was told an american diameter line. After this i put all mags back to green gas including my pistol. 

   I'm now thinking i have a potential power source that's not being used but want to utilize it as being cheaper than gas, so I'm wondering can something like the Madbull Propane adapter be attached to the line to just inject air into the mags instead of keeping it constantly connected? or is it a scenario where the pressure would be to high to keep in the mag for a long period of time or having be set too low on the reg to not make it useful?    

 

[Tommikka]

I think there is a technical possibility, but not necessarily practical:

Convert magazines to HPA with valve sealed fill nipples - classic style or ‘quick connect’ style 

Use a remote line with either a manual on/off slide check to fit the classic style nipple, or with a self sealing ‘quick connect’ system 

Fill each magazine via the remote line

Then when in use I doubt there is any practicality because the air is pre-regulated down by the in-line regulator  As as

When you shoot either the pressure drops or you use up the air that you have

I reckon that this is technically possible to allow you to change magazine, but you would be changing magazine and transferring the air line

I’m intrigued and am thinking of drawing a couple of designs!

 

[Tommikka]

Thinking about it the ‘quick disconnect’ nipples won’t work, as I don’t think they are available with valves to seal in the air

Classic 1/8”NPT nipples can come with a valve (you just need to know if you’re getting an basic nipple or a nipple with valve - if it’s called a fill nipple then that usually means with valve)

If you had a valved fill nipple on every magazine and a fill line with an on/off valve then you could swap magazines

But I doubt you’re going to be able to get any shots off with just a primed magazine

But you might manage to put in the new magazine and fire a shot or two with the velocity dropping until you reconnect the air line to refresh it

Dont forget that for airsoft purposes you still need your inline regulator so you don’t blow your gun apart

However - if you can integrate your inline into the gun and had a vessel in your magazine capable of holding up to 850psi etc depending on your bottles regulated output, then that would hold enough pressure to allow you to change magazines.   Working with high pressure air is for the experts though and ‘a vessel’ would need approval just like a cylinder 

View attachment 30352

 

[Tormen7ed]

Thinking about it the ‘quick disconnect’ nipples won’t work, as I don’t think they are available with valves to seal in the air

Classic 1/8”NPT nipples can come with a valve (you just need to know if you’re getting an basic nipple or a nipple with valve - if it’s called a fill nipple then that usually means with valve)

   I was think more along of keeping the normal fill valve that is used with green gases and attaching something like this to the end of the line instead of the male/female connector. so using the HPA bottle,Reg,Line combo as a glorified green gas can.

View attachment 30361

 

[Tommikka]

   I was think more along of keeping the normal fill valve that is used with green gases and attaching something like this to the end of the line instead of the male/female connector. so using the HPA bottle,Reg,Line combo as a glorified green gas can.

View attachment 30361

That I think wouldn’t work.

Green gas is propane based, I’m not so familiar with the properties of green gas/propane as with CO2, but they act in both liquid and gaseous states

Im familiar with co2 that it’s in the cylinder or a 12 gram in liquid state, and when released goes to its gaseous state.

Therefore when you fill the magazine it’s filled with liquid, you shoot and some gas is released the rest remains as less liquid.  The gas releases at a pretty much consistent pressure.

With HPA you fill to a specified pressure, when some is released the remainder expands and the pressure drops.

You could use one of those to fill with air, but only have X amount of air at Y pressure.  Without the source cylinder refreshing then you’ll be constantly dropping pressure 

Paintball started with co2 then went to air.  The original HPA cylinder regulators were set to output at approx 850psi to match co2s gaseous state, and most old school / mechanical paintball guns can run on air or co2 but might fail to cycle properly with newer HPA cylinder regulators at 600psi or less 

More modern designs have their own inline regulators dropping down to operate on 250psi or less 

Airsoft on HPA places the lowered regulator away from the gun so you will need a regulated feed to keep the magazine going

 

[Tormen7ed]

   I think i get what your saying, as soon as the air pressure (i.e 120psi) in the magazine is released (one shot) then its all gone no more "fuel"? Its because the bottle itself is under higher compression (600psi) than what is being allowed to come out of it, is what keeps that pressure there for continual shooting right?

   Whilst green gas stored then as liquid in the magazine is what keeps the pressure inside acting like a compressor until its all expended as a gas with each trigger pull?    

Rats though I might have been on to something

 

[Immortal]

The regulator does what it's name says... it just regulates a specified pressure to be released (the same or lower than it's source but) consistently everytime until the original sources pressure drops below it's regulators regulated set output value.

The amount of regulated pressurized gas released per shot is governed by the speed of the valve opening and closing and the valves internal capactity itself (either on the reg itself or from a valve that is filled by the regulated gas source eg; a valve in the gun or mag). Another factor is the size of output port on the valve, a larger hole will let air out quicker and so on... but what comes out is regulated nontheless.

Something like that

 

[Tommikka]

Yes an airsoft green gas magazine will release its gas into the B.B. guns system depending on the valve size and time it’s open when shot

Wirh gases such as green gas and co2 that will have fairly consistent effect per shot until there’s not enough left

With pressurised air that isn’t refreshed the potential energy of the air remaining will drop between each shot as there is less and less air under pressure in there 

When the whole site system is in place then the source (air cylinder) refreshes the magazine when it’s pressure drops below the regulated level

How this happens in practicality in an airsoft HPA system is yet to be seen.   If the magazine can sustain the amount of air released per shot then it may be feasible to prime a number of magazines with air as you would with green gas, but if they need a pressure to be sustained then the effectiveness would be lost with each shot without constant refreshing from a regulated source

Interesting to see if this can be tried

 

[Tormen7ed]

The regulator does what it's name says... it just regulates a specified pressure to be released (the same or lower than it's source but) consistently everytime until the original sources pressure drops below it's regulators regulated set output value.

Understand what the regulator does that's not the bit that is causing confusion, might not have explained myself too well  .

Its just that with the Mag being a sealed reservoir I was under the impression that what is put into it will remain their until the trigger is pulled. So if i was to fill the magazine like you would with green gas but using an Air bottle so that the air can be used in the same way as you would green gas :wacko:  

Interesting to see if this can be tried

   I would still like to try this to see if i can use it as an alternative to green gas but like you pointed out due to the different natures of air/propane it probably wouldn't work for more than 2 shots? knowing my luck as well it'd probably turn the mag into a home made torpedo.

 

[Immortal]

Understand what the regulator does that's not the bit that is causing confusion, might not have explained myself too well 

 No I probably just didn't read it properly I understand now

 If the magazine can sustain the amount of air released per shot then it may be feasible to prime a number of magazines with air as you would with green gas, but if they need a pressure to be sustained then the effectiveness would be lost with each shot without constant refreshing from a regulated source

Yup, I think for it to work consistently it would want to have the valve on the actual mag regulated and the mag itself holding a high pressure fill to feed the reg... I think the issue would then be the mags capacity, integrity and F'nose where a reg that small would come from + fitting it all!

Probably why they don't currently exist.

 

[Tormen7ed]

I think for it to work consistently it would want to have the valve on the actual mag regulated and the mag itself holding a high pressure fill to feed the reg... I think the issue would then be the mags capacity, integrity and F'nose where a reg that small would come from + fitting it all!

After reading that i understand now why you bought up the Reg. So the knocker valve alone in the mag isn't enough to keep a usable amount of air in? (for more than one shot)  

 

[Tommikka]

After reading that i understand now why you bought up the Reg. So the knocker valve alone in the mag isn't enough to keep a usable amount of air in? (for more than one shot)  

That’s what you’re going to prove or disprove if you try it!

Its either only going to let you have only one or two shots, or it’s going to give you more shots at an ever decreasing velocity and we won’t realy know how quickly that drops until it’s been tried.  

If the valves amount of air released is sufficiently low in relation to the magazines air capacity then the pressure will slowly drop and this could have some practicality, if not then you’re going to get bang bang burp whisper

 

[Tormen7ed]

only one way to find out  will have to see if i can pick up one of those adapters from somewhere come payday

Thanks for the input fellas

 

[Immortal]

Roll on payday. I'd like to see what progresses.

 

[Tormen7ed]

Finally managed to get an Adapter. Now just waiting on the new line I have ordered. Then the joy of figuring out how to connect it all up :wacko: