Paypal fees

[snuff]

Would it be possible to enforce Paypal's rules and make the seller foot the fees as most do?

 

[Gepard]

I think it should be up to the seller. It does sometimes put me off a bit though when talking in PMs and realising it's extra.

We could at least have any additional costs such as postage or PayPal fees displayed below the price of the listing. 

 

[snuff]

I find it easier for myself and my buyers to include all fees and then discount for collection/meet/cash..I have been paid as friend /family myself but I have advised buyers that it isn't wise.

When you look at a price and perhaps you are budgeting (lol airsofters budgeting) the extras can mean no deal..

 

[proffrink]

Not if you're doing it manually. The only way to do that would be for AFUK to become a middleman unfortunately.

 

[snuff]

Not if you're doing it manually. The only way to do that would be for AFUK to become a middleman unfortunately.

If you mean to enforce paypal's rules surely just don't allow sellers to add "buyers covers fees" or similar.

 

[proffrink]

Pretty hard to enforce is my point I suppose. Any thoughts @Jedi_Master

 

[Jedi_Master]

My preference would be that the seller pays the PayPal fees because they are the one doing the selling. However, I have also paid the fees myself as a buyer. I think it all depends on the particular sale, how much you want an item and whether the cost is worth it to you.

Any advert needs to include all costs involved; I would want to know what the total is that I am going to have to pay.

Whilst AFUK hosts sales, it is still a private negotiation between the two independent parties. PayPal is a recommended method of money transfer. What members choose to do is up to them and not the forum’s responsibility. In the same way we do not enforce VCRA but can only recommend courses of action.

Any issue from the sale can be highlighted in seller/buyer feedback, and enable members to do due dilligence where possible.

 

[proffrink]

My thoughts too. If your time is wasted by someone who hasn't disclosed that they're charging fees then I think it's your prerogative to tell them to shove it, but I can't see a way for us to enforce use of PayPal (nor would I want to as people do meet face to face or do bank transfers if they know one another). Would probably be an overstep to ask mods to weigh in every time someone slaps that 3.4% on.

 

[snuff]

Fair enough..I've been there like you said..seller adds at the end of the deal don't forget the p/p fees....it wasn't a lot but it was the principal..

Spoiler

..just wondered what this was..ha,ha.... h34r:

 

[Tommikka]

As a previous forum moderator, I’m aware of the workload in dealing with classifieds and enforcing the rules

It was pretty much a full time job picking up sales posts, and we had a standard template that we used to smash a hammer on those who failed to comply.

Policy was that we edited the non compliant sales post, deleting the content and pasting in a template statement, though for minor infractions we would often put in a comment and give them a short time to comply before slamming the hammer

I dealt with it by having notifications on the classifieds section and the script was in my phones notepad.  I could on occasion take adverts down in seconds from the original post.

Unless I was in a bad mood I’d mostly be nice & copy the offending advert into our hidden moderators area, then we could send it back if the seller was polite and had put in  lot of effort typing in details and linking photos to save them from starting from scratch and missing something else out 

Our rules on negotiation were the opposite of the method here, enquiries & offers etc were to be posted on the thread and only going to pm for the private details.

To me this has the benefit of transparency so we could keep an eye on dodgy practices and the whole membership could see price trends etc

The trading rules here do already recommend PayPal is used and that fees are covered normally in ‘transaction advice’





Perhaps it could be reworded slightly to be that PayPal should be used as standard, with fees deducted from the sellers received amount, and maybe the sale’s template wording to something like:

Price/Payment: £x. (Inclusive / exclusive of postage and PayPal transaction fees - delete as applicable)

 

[AshOnSnow]

From the other point of view, the first sale I made, I was a bit annoyed when it was a £250 sale and something around £210 came through - transpired I'd not only been stuck with the standard paypal fee, but the buyer had also somehow handed off a currency conversion fee to my end too by just googling the average conversion rate at the time and sent through Euros. When you negotiate down, then include things like P&P, extra charges on top of that are a bit of a kick in the teeth, especially if you're not expecting them.

 

[proffrink]

Fair enough..I've been there like you said..seller adds at the end of the deal don't forget the p/p fees....it wasn't a lot but it was the principal..

Spoiler

..just wondered what this was..ha,ha.... h34r:

The issue is overmoderation - people can usually sort things out like this for themselves and though encouraging the right behaviour can sometimes be good, you don't want people to see listing on here as 'too much effort' because of the rules. Whilst this alone won't be a reason for people to think that, it can contribute to a wider feeling of being a bit closed in when it comes to posting anything here (classifieds or otherwise). I would like to avoid such a situation, but we have already made concessions in other places by forcing images, making feedback prominent, requiring muzzle energy etc. I feel like once we start weighing in on negotiations (even in a small way) that we could turn certain people off.

<snip>

PayPal is recommended but frankly will never be a requirement. I would certainly consider suggesting it more prominently outside of the rules.

Also rules are due to be updated at some point to reflect recent changes. Likely at the end of the month.

From the other point of view, the first sale I made, I was a bit annoyed when it was a £250 sale and something around £210 came through - transpired I'd not only been stuck with the standard paypal fee, but the buyer had also somehow handed off a currency conversion fee to my end too by just googling the average conversion rate at the time and sent through Euros. When you negotiate down, then include things like P&P, extra charges on top of that are a bit of a kick in the teeth, especially if you're not expecting them.

This is indeed a quirk of PayPal. Make them send you GBP or just refund it if you're not happy and break off the deal. Ultimately everyone is in charge of their own negotiation and I don't think AFUK should be making explicit requirements of listing fees, payment currencies etc. (though I know your post wasn't suggesting this and you were just adding an anecdote).

 

[Duff]

At the end of the day, the seller is responsible for the fee's. You want Paypal, you cover the fee. Simple as that.

 

[proffrink]

Disagree with it being so cut and dry. I've certainly seen and happily bought from people who say 'friends and family or you cover the fees' (and I typically take the risk for anything under £15 and pay the fees over £15 if they're explicit). I've also had - as others - sellers who suddenly want to add fees. Usually I agree to pay half or as why it wasn't in the listing. Sometimes sellers omit talking about PayPal because they know about the fees involved and don't want to lose a sale to someone presuming they'll only take payment with a 3.4% surcharge (I've yet to meet a seller who isn't happy accepting F&F or a bank transfer). However, these are things that - if you're a seller - you can make your own decision on and - if you're a buyer - you can ask about.

Again, I'm personally never going to recommend anyone does send with F&F (especially if they're so new to PayPal and buying stuff online that they're having to ask) but equally probably not going to make a totally unenforceable rule that requires a certain payment processor or how the fees for that payment processor are paid. Those are things that the forum should not be deciding for you.

 

[Duff]

I'm happy to cover the fee's if the price that is discussed includes those from the get go. If someone says right near the end of the netogtiations about adding fee's then they've just wasted their time. Be up front and be honest.

 

[proffrink]

Well quite, but that's not what we're talking about: We're talking about whether to:

a) Do nothing

b) Change the rules to require PayPal

c) Change the rules to require sellers to pay the fees if they use PayPal

d) Advise people to use PayPal, but do not require it

And I'm saying b) and c) are somewhat overreaches of forum rules and that they should be discussed by two reasonable people during their negotiation. Open to d) though.

I'm certainly not saying that there's a ban on being upfront and honest. You're well within your rights to break off a deal for yourself if someone is wasting your time by throwing in last-minute fees, but that's not what we're really talking about here as that's always been the case and will continue to be.

 

[Duff]

Well taking a stand point on it means you have to set a rule and make sure people adhere to it. Or you could just leave it up to the partiers involved to decide what payment method to use.

 

[proffrink]

I don't understand what you mean. You mean we'd have to make a rule of using PayPal rather than just suggesting it? Soz, being dense I expect.

My thoughts right now are to advise use of PayPal but to leave it up to those two parties to decide for themselves. Again, my feeling is that:

a) It's not the forums place to decide how you pay for your goods and, even if it was;

b) Enforcing use of PayPal is pretty difficult anyway:

• Whilst you could report someone for trying to not use PayPal there would be no evidence without us checking private messages (which we'd never do - indeed moderators can't do)
  
• We could - in theory - warn someone if we get enough reports, but this is assuming people bother to report/don't just use the other payment method and walk away happy regardless
  
• There's also the issue of adding another rule to a list that many people don't read. Keeping the rules lean is a high priority
  

I prefer PayPal over bank transfer for ease, but there are those who do refuse to use it. Whether you deal with them is - as you say - up to you, but we're discussing if the forums should be involved. I suppose I'm asking which you propose?

 

[AshOnSnow]

Just another thing to pop in here, the "buyer protection" scheme that PayPal offered, last I heard is void for airsoft items. Maybe someone can link the thread recently where PayPal confirmed this? I remember reading it here.

 

[Deva]

The TLDR feels like: continue the recommendation of PayPal, add a note into the rules saying prices must be inclusive of all fees for your chosen payment/shipping method. It's not something to actively moderate, but it's a friendly reminder to create an open/honest sale and means you can act if someone persistently ignores this.