To prove a point to a moronic mate: Are AKs ergonomic?

[Airsoft-Ed]

Thank you, Dave.

Effing finally!

 

[Ian_Gere]

Hands must be moved from their firing position in order to manipulate the safety or drop a magazine. Poor Ergonomics

Much has been made of these points, however they are simply untrue.

I can operate the fire selector or mag release with my trigger finger while keeping a firm hold of the pistol grip, with minimal hand position changes to begin firing again once the desired setting is selected or new mag is in.

 

[SheriffHD]

Again, I point back to the question. What is the intention for the rifle.

intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort.

in the 10 years in the desert, The AK has served many people well, it has worked smoothly with few jams during combat.
The M4 has had to be redesigned several times to suit the harsh desert terrain.

So what would cause me the lest amount of discomfort?
Would I rather a rifle that worked every time I pulled the trigger, that require little maintenance and that I could rely on.
or would I raher a rifle that blew up when shot after being submerged, that would jam more than it should of.

If it is a gun that You will shoot on a range, Then you can afford a rifle that is comfortable and has all the bells and whistles as you dont need a reliable rifle you just need a rifle you enjoy shooting.

do I want a plastic stock that will break, or would I rather an iron stock that will take a beating.

Remember you are stating ergonomics as what the rifle is its self, but you need to understand what it would be like to actually use the rifle on a daily basis.

Id rather a rifle I could treat like crap that one that had to be cared for like a princess.

the rifle that goes on longer is the one that will cause me the least amount of discomfort, and will give me the best efficiency.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Remember you are stating ergonomics as what the rifle is its self, but you need to understand what it would be like to actually use the rifle on a daily basis.

No... No you don't. Especially not when we're here to answer a question that I posed, which doesn't ask you to factor that in.

Ergonomics are as Dave defined, design characteristics which offer the most comfort and least fatigue, whilst decreasing the chance of injury from misuse. Does the AK have them?

No, no it doesn't.

The AK is bad at those things for all the reasons Dave stated and in addition to what Dave stated, the wooden hand guard is surrounded by metal, which gets hot, which burns you, which is bad. More bad ergonomics.

You are all twisting the question in a way that supports what you're trying to argue, when Dave is the only person who has actually addressed what I initially asked.

Reliability and how good it is at what it's for are irrelevant when answering the question posed.

 

[Rock-climby-Dave]

I didn't define it either to suit my argument. I googled:

Define: Ergonomic

that was the result. I didn't have to twist anything to reach my conclusion.

Also, I'd choose an AR15 over an AK anyday (I did NOT say M4, I said AR15... M4's are shite.)

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Without starting another argument...









How is an AR-15 different enough from an M4 for you to prefer one significantly over the other? The AR-15 in semi auto only, the M4 has full auto, or burst, and semi auto... What's the difference aside from that?

 

[Ian_Gere]

Ed's sort of got you there, Sheriff, but Ed, surely we must consider the maintenance of the rifle as part of its normal use, since it is necessary to its continued use, right?

In which case, by our previously agreed layman's, non-technical-jargon, idea of what ergonomics is about, where speed of performance is synonymous with ease of use, then the simple nature of the AK, which needs little maintenance but what it does need it has the tool handy for, is good ergonomics...

 

[Rock-climby-Dave]

M4 is a specific AR15 model made by Colt. It may aswell be made from small fruits it jams so much.

AR15 is (or has become) the encompassing term. within the AR15 you can do pretty much anything you want. VLTOR upper with a NOVESKE rail system and a custom machined lower, hair trigger shiny barrel and magpul furniture? sure, have one, It's an AR15 not 'an M4'

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Ed's sort of got you there, Sheriff, but Ed, surely we must consider the maintenance of the rifle as part of its normal use, since it is necessary to its continued use, right?

In which case, by our previously agreed layman's, non-technical-jargon, idea of what ergonomics is about, where speed of performance is synonymous with ease of use, then the simple nature of the AK, which needs little maintenance but what it does need it has the tool handy for, is good ergonomics...

I don't think we need go as far as the maintenance, and not just because it would void my side of the argument. I actually think the M4 is still safer and easier to maintain, that is 'work on' before you bring up it being required of the weapon more often. But I'll give the AK credit over the M4 for having the clearing rod handy at all times.

You have to do more with it to keep M4s maintained, but opening it up and working on it has got to be easier than doing the same for an AK. For starters you have to separate the trigger group from the bolt and firing pin to attend to any of it, which immediately makes it impossible for the rifle to go off if you forgot to clear it prior to disassembly. Whereas the AK can be operated without the top cover even being on, which is the only piece you need remove to get to the working parts. So going by the definition of ergonomic that Dave found, where it highlights the risk of injury to the user, the AK is far more likely to injure someone than the M4 whilst you're taking each one apart. Though I guess the ease of taking it apart probably does go to the AK just because there are less steps required to fully strip it down. So they more or less draw even, making maintenance a mute point.

But I digress, why would the comfort and fatigue of use go as far as taking the gun apart? If it's in pieces you don't really need the parts to be easy to manipulate because if you get to the point when you need to take it apart whilst you're using it, you're going to be equally screwed either way. It doesn't particularly matter that the AK is less likely to stop working, because even if it didn't require any maintenance at all that doesn't suddenly mean the ergonomics of it are better.

The longevity of it functioning without maintenance doesn't round off the sharp edges, cool the parts that get hot and magically mould the rifle to suit the person using it.

M4 is a specific AR15 model made by Colt. It may aswell be made from small fruits it jams so much.

AR15 is (or has become) the encompassing term. within the AR15 you can do pretty much anything you want. VLTOR upper with a NOVESKE rail system and a custom machined lower, hair trigger shiny barrel and magpul furniture? sure, have one, It's an AR15 not 'an M4'

That's a fair differentiation. In that case, I wonder if US troops have ever bought parts to internally improve their rifles, swapping out the gas system for the one found in the HK416 or something, for example.

 

[SheriffHD]

O hell yeah, AR Platform is a beast, Id chose to upgrade the spring buffer to a hydraulic one Id also replace the charging handle to a forward placed one becuace its jut better in that area. Wouldnt have a Noveske rail, Id chose something by troy Industries and with out a doubt Id have to get the Zombie hunter Upper too.

AR platform is just highly modular and brilliant, I think it a gun that every one should have.

But yeah, The AK is a good rifle and IMHO an ergonomic rifle for combat.


An if given the choice, Id honestly chose an AK-12 vs any AR-15.

EDIT: I see that daves comment was for the AK-47, Was your question at the AK platform as a whole (in which case renders most of his argument moot) Or regarding the AK-47 by its self. In which point he is fully valid with all claims. (Which renders most of my argument moot)

If you look at the AK-12, all the points he mentioned that make the AK-47 bad, have all been fixed with the AK-12.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I meant the more general systems under the title of AK. Namely the AK 47s and 74s, vs the equivalent M4s and M16s.

Not willing to dwell on the fact that they are from different time periods and the AR updated more frequently than the AKs.

Basically comparing 'what we think of as an AK' to 'what we think of as an M4', most largely in terms of their control surface layout.

 

[SheriffHD]

Well, Original AK (the 47 and 74) admittedly are not the best designs, I mean like every russian made rifle, they are tough and work no matter what. But yeah, they had faults.

But in terms of the new AK models (Mainly the AK-12) All the arguments form the previous models are moot. Its an outstanding rifle. SVS style dust cap. Better fire selector, HK style dual mag ejection system, Dual sided charging, adjustable stock plus rubber mat to adsorb recoil, Plus the AK family world known reliability factor.

So yeah, AK-12. A very ergonomic rifle indeed.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

AK 12, just googled it. It seems the same as the AK 200, prior to reading up on it I'd no clue it was so different from the original design.

Have to say I rather like it. Kinda wish there was a gas airsoft one...

 

[SheriffHD]

Yeah its a new design rifle. and yes AK-200 was the intial product name for the AK-12. Its aimed to hit the sheilfs for Russian forces this year after its testing has finished. In all does indeed look to be one hell of a rifle. I mean no where near as modular was what the AR15 is, but still a pretty good rifle. I like that it will have a 5.45 rnd version too.

And yeah Id love to have one of these when they hit the Airsoft market. Always wanted an AK just so I could do the awesome AEK reload from BF3. (tried doing it once at bisley, got told off, apparently they dont like people pissing about with real firearms.)

 

[Ian_Gere]

Well I think that field maintenance is part of ordinary use and because it's easier to strip an AK than an AR, it's more ergonomic, but I agree about safety. Still, nobody ought to need teaching that safety point. I mean, if there's a bullet in a gun, it's very dangerous and so it should never be pointed anywhere you really wouldn't want shot unless and until you have personally verified by looking that it isn't loaded...

But sticking to the controls, I still prefer AK's. I don't want the fire selector on the inside where it can get bumped on my body/kit or interfered with by a 3-point sling. I don't mind rock'n'lock at all - fitting the lip in 1st is no more difficult than fitting a STANAG mag in squarely. For mag release, I just reach my trigger finger forward past the trigger guard and press - hey presto, mag drops out...

The thumb switch on AR's doesn't suit my thumb - I have to pull my hand back off the pistol grip a bit to fully use it, and since it isn't ambidextrous, I have no option of using the other side of my hand as I do with a G36...

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

I think you must just have abnormally large hands, Ian. I can't imagine coming anything close to being able to drop the mag on an AK with any finger on my right hand, not with any remote degree of ease or comfort anyway. I wouldn't have considered my hands to be particularly small either. I'm a large glove size.

Always wanted an AK just so I could do the awesome AEK reload from BF3. (tried doing it once at bisley, got told off, apparently they dont like people pissing about with real firearms.)

Lmao!

 

[Tariq]

I think you must just have abnormally large hands, Ian. I can't imagine coming anything close to being able to drop the mag on an AK with any finger on my right hand, not with any remote degree of ease or comfort anyway. I wouldn't have considered my hands to be particularly small either. I'm a large glove size.

I can do it too, as well as the G36 and my hand size is no bigger than a medium size glove.

 

[Ian_Gere]

Glove size 9 - 9.5, but yeah my fingers are longer in comparison to my palms than most people's, I think.

AK-12 looks lovely - but I'll bet a ball that that thumb switch doesn't suit me as well as the old fire selector lol!

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

If I'm honest it would never have even occurred to me to try it. So maybe I can reach, I haven't handled an AK in a while, but in my head I can't picture it being easy.

I think it's fair to say that the way the catches are shaped and the position of them implies that wasn't the way they were intended to be used. So innovative as doing it that way may be, I have to say that, as with most things, it isn't very ergonomic.

On MP5s there is actually an M4 style mag release in addition to the AK style clip forward of the trigger guard, to help argue my point. You'd have thought H&K would've simply changed the shape of the catch to make it easier to reach instead of adding the M4 mag release as well. That goes for the G36 as well. Couldn't they just attach more material to the catch so that it brought it closer, or around the forward section of the trigger guard? I think that would actually be a pretty cool AK mod... I wonder if extended mag release clips can be bought.

 

[SheriffHD]

If On MP5s there is actually an M4 style mag

release in addition to the AK style clip forward of the trigger guard,

to help argue my point. You'd have thought H&K would've simply

changed the shape of the catch to make it easier to reach instead of

adding the M4 mag release as well. That goes for the G36 as well.

Couldn't they just attach more material to the catch so that it brought

it closer, or around the forward section of the trigger guard? I think

that would actually be a pretty cool AK mod... I wonder if extended mag

release clips can be bought.

Thats what they have on the AK-12. Its a nice touch. I look forward to it, The m4 mag catch allows for on target reload, while the under lever catch allows for the spetznaz reload style still. both which are good and effective, so it caters for many types of trained personel, which i think is good for ergonomics.

I'm a large glove size.